Under The Surface Podcast

Welcome to the very first episode of Under the Surface. In this conversation, I sit down with Renee Cormier to talk about the real work behind building a sustainable, independent business in a market that’s changing fast.
 
We go beyond surface-level strategy and dig into what leaders are actually wrestling with — the tradeoffs, the pressure, the infrastructure decisions, and the discipline it takes to build something that lasts. We talk about what it really means to “get good, then get big,” why readiness isn’t just about growth plans, and how leaders need to think differently about risk, security, and long-term stability.
 
If you’re a CEO, founder, or executive leader navigating growth, independence, and real-world decision-making, this episode is for you.
 
Guest Introduction:
Renee Cormier is a marketing strategist, business consultant, and the founder of the Fractional Referral Network, a community of independent leaders focused on building long-term, sustainable practices. She works across marketing strategy, business consulting, and organizational design, giving her a front-row seat to what leaders are actually wrestling with in today’s market.
 
Key Takeaways:
 Building an independent business requires discipline, clarity, and long-term thinking — not just growth plans.
The real work happens behind the scenes: infrastructure, boundaries, and decision-making under pressure.
Sustainable growth starts with getting good before getting big.
Fractional leadership is about ownership, accountability, and embedded impact — not surface-level consulting.
Readiness is about choosing the right work for the long term.
 
Chapter Markers:
 0:00 Intro – Welcome to Under the Surface
1:00 Guest Introduction – Meet Renee Cormier
2:00 The Real Work of Staying Independent
7:30 Navigating Growth, Risk, and Uncertainty
15:00 Fractional Leadership vs Traditional Consulting
23:00 Building Infrastructure That Scales
31:00 Getting Good Before Getting Big
36:30 Long-Term Readiness and Leadership Discipline
38:20 Closing Thoughts
 
Keywords:
Paul Zyla, Renee Cormier, Under the Surface Podcast, leadership podcast, business leadership, fractional leadership, independent business, executive decision making, business growth strategy, organizational readiness, risk management, sustainable business, CEO podcast, CFO podcast, leadership conversations

In this episode of Under the Surface, I’m joined by Tom Hoelderle for a grounded conversation about what actually drives sustainable growth — and why sales talent alone isn’t enough.
We dig into the realities many leaders face when growth depends too heavily on founders, tribal knowledge, or a handful of tenured salespeople. Tom breaks down why value proposition clarity is the foundation of strategy, how repeatable sales systems protect valuation, and what happens when organizations try to scale without process, discipline, or accountability.
We also explore the tension leaders face when introducing change into established sales teams, how KPIs and compensation shape behavior, and why sales infrastructure matters long before an exit is ever on the table.
If you’re a CEO, founder, or executive leader trying to scale revenue without burning yourself out — this episode is for you.
Guest Introduction:
Tom Hoelderle is a seasoned sales, marketing, and operations leader with deep experience helping organizations translate strategy into measurable results. He works closely with executive teams to build clear value propositions, repeatable sales systems, and KPIs leaders can trust — bringing discipline, alignment, and accountability to revenue engines that need to scale.
Key Takeaways:
 A clear value proposition is the starting point for all strategy and sales execution.
Founder-led sales limit scale and can significantly impact long-term valuation.
Revenue growth depends on systems, frameworks, and repeatable processes — not heroics.
Sales process adoption improves when tools add value to the salesperson, not just leadership.
KPIs and compensation drive behavior and must align with growth goals.
Sustainable sales engines must operate independently of individual relationships.
 
Chapter Markers:
 0:00 Intro – What Under the Surface Is Really About
0:45 Guest Introduction – Meet Tom Hoelderle
2:30 Why Value Proposition Is the Foundation of Strategy
5:30 The Trap of Founder-Led Sales
8:50 Sales Systems, Process, and Scalability
11:45 Change Management Inside Tenured Sales Teams
15:00 CRM, Tools, and Driving Adoption
19:30 When to Optimize vs Replace Sales Models
22:00 Growth, Cost Discipline, and Valuation
25:00 Sales KPIs, Compensation, and Accountability
29:00 Private Equity, Due Diligence, and Sales Readiness
34:00 The Role of Independent Advisors
39:00 Closing Thoughts
Keywords:
 aul Zyla, Tom Hoelderle, Under the Surface Podcast, sales leadership, revenue growth, scalable sales systems, founder led sales, value proposition strategy, sales KPIs, sales process, B2B manufacturing sales, private equity readiness, organizational change management, executive leadership podcast

In this episode of Under the Surface, I sit down with Chris Cathers — founder of Grit Meets Growth — to talk about what leaders are really facing as AI moves from curiosity to operational reality.
We dig into how organizations are approaching AI adoption, the difference between public and private models, and why data governance, guardrails, and leadership discipline matter more than ever. Chris brings a grounded perspective shaped by his background in cybersecurity and his work with executive teams who want to move fast without creating unnecessary risk.
We also explore organizational change, employee adoption, and why AI should be used to make people better — not replace them.
If you’re a CEO, founder, or executive leader trying to balance innovation, security, and long-term readiness, this episode is for you.
 
Guest Introduction:
Chris Cathers is a founder, executive coach, and community builder who works with successful leaders who know there’s more possible than their current results. With a background in cybersecurity and risk management, and as the force behind Grit Meets Growth, Chris helps organizations navigate change, build resilient leadership, and adopt new technologies with clarity and discipline.
 
Key Takeaways:
 AI should make your people better — not replace them.
Leaders need guardrails, governance, and clear use cases before scaling AI.
Data is the real risk, and data strategy must come before deployment.
Public AI and private AI are very different — and leaders need to understand both.
Organizational change management is critical for successful AI adoption.
 
Chapter Markers:
 0:00 Intro – Welcome to Under the Surface
1:00 Guest Introduction – Meet Chris Cathers
2:10 Why AI Is the Conversation Leaders Can’t Ignore
5:30 Enterprise vs Mid-Market AI Adoption
8:00 Public AI vs Private AI
11:30 Solving the Right Problems with AI
15:00 Organizational Change and Employee Adoption
18:30 Using AI to Make People Better
22:00 AI as a General-Purpose Business Tool
25:30 Infrastructure, Power, and the Future of AI
28:00 Data, Security, and Governance
31:30 Closing Thoughts
 
Keywords:
Paul Zyla, Chris Cathers, Under the Surface Podcast, AI leadership, artificial intelligence business, cybersecurity leadership, executive decision making, business risk management, data governance, AI adoption, private AI, public AI, leadership podcast, technology strategy

Welcome to the very first episode of Under the Surface. In this conversation, I sit down with Renee Cormier to talk about the real work behind building a sustainable, independent business in a market that’s changing fast.
We go beyond surface-level strategy and dig into what leaders are actually wrestling with — the tradeoffs, the pressure, the infrastructure decisions, and the discipline it takes to build something that lasts. We talk about what it really means to “get good, then get big,” why readiness isn’t just about growth plans, and how leaders need to think differently about risk, security, and long-term stability.
If you’re a CEO, founder, or executive leader navigating growth, independence, and real-world decision-making, this episode is for you.
 
Guest Introduction:
Renee Cormier is a marketing strategist, business consultant, and the founder of the Fractional Referral Network, a community of independent leaders focused on building long-term, sustainable practices. She works across marketing strategy, business consulting, and organizational design, giving her a front-row seat to what leaders are actually wrestling with in today’s market.
 
Key Takeaways:
 Building an independent business requires discipline, clarity, and long-term thinking — not just growth plans.
The real work happens behind the scenes: infrastructure, boundaries, and decision-making under pressure.
Sustainable growth starts with getting good before getting big.
Fractional leadership is about ownership, accountability, and embedded impact — not surface-level consulting.
Readiness is about choosing the right work for the long term.
 
Chapter Markers:
 0:00 Intro – Welcome to Under the Surface
1:00 Guest Introduction – Meet Renee Cormier
2:00 The Real Work of Staying Independent
7:30 Navigating Growth, Risk, and Uncertainty
15:00 Fractional Leadership vs Traditional Consulting
23:00 Building Infrastructure That Scales
31:00 Getting Good Before Getting Big
36:30 Long-Term Readiness and Leadership Discipline
38:20 Closing Thoughts
 
Keywords:
Paul Zyla, Renee Cormier, Under the Surface Podcast, leadership podcast, business leadership, fractional leadership, independent business, executive decision making, business growth strategy, organizational readiness, risk management, sustainable business, CEO podcast, CFO podcast, leadership conversations